Self-Directed Brokers and False Advertising

Darryl:
So you want to do a podcast today of all days?

René:
Every day is a good day for a podcast.

Darryl:
Oh, well, it's been a day.

René:
It's been a day. You seem to have a lot of those days, buddy.

Darryl:
Sometimes. Today I spent some time dealing with what I think is the worst relationship in my life.

René:
Listen. Erin tunes in, man. You shouldn't be talking about her like that.

Darryl:
No, no, it's not that. It's worse. Bad cell service.

René:
Oh, yeah.

Darryl:
You pay way too much and it's never there when you need it.

René:
Dude, you're preaching to the choir. How many conversations have you and I had when I was driving home from client meetings and having to call you back three, four times?

Darryl:
It's like you're all smooth talking and everything. Then boom, dead silence.

René:
It is the worst form of fucking torture, in my opinion.

Darryl:
And there's no use complaining.

René:
No, it's not fucking torture. It's just super frustrating.

Darryl:
It is super frustrating. And there's no use complaining to, like, customer service because they'll just tell you stuff like, have you tried turning it off and back on again?

René:
No, Darryl, there's no cell service. How are you going to call them?

Darryl:
Well, later. I mean, that's what I always get when I get call customer service to complain about anything. Have you tried resetting it?

René:
Yeah. Is your computer plugged in?

Darryl:
Yeah. Yeah, thanks, Karen. I've done it 47 times. I'm pretty sure the problem is that your company fucking sucks. This is Taming the Hustle...

René:
Or Something of the Sorts.

Darryl:
So we have a special guest joining us today.

René:
Oh, he's special,

Darryl:
One of your team members. It's none other than Ryan. Duncan, welcome to the show. Ryan. Good to have you back.

Ryan Duncan:
Thanks, boys. How's it going?

Darryl:
Ryan, you're a Toronto guy who moved to Northern Ontario, so you know all too well about bad cell phone service.

Ryan Duncan:
Oh, Darryl, we could spend two hours on this. I cannot stand Bell, dude. I could be under a tower and have no bars. Like, it drives me up the wall. Yeah. All I can think of is In Lethal Weapon 4, when Joe Pesci and Chris Rocker talking, and they go, yeah, you on the cell phone.

Darryl:
You know, See, I went the opposite. I. I moved from Northern Ontario down to Toronto and working in hockey, I'm going rink to rink, and I found I was with Rogers because I did not like Bell, and I found I would get no cell service in any rink. Professional, amateur, didn't matter. So I changed to Bell. And I'm like, I get service everywhere. It's. So visit you guys up north and it's like, nothing.

Darryl:
Zero cell service.

Ryan Duncan:
And they're like, the only provider. I think there's one other, but it's even worse. And I don't understand how you could be worse. So I might as well just use a walkie talkie.

René:
You know what we should do in the office, Ry, is...

Darryl:
Tin cans

Ryan Duncan:
With a string. Might as well. And then you look like an idiot. I hold my hand up because that pretends like it works. And I'm like, looking everywhere. People are still looking at me. Like, doesn't make any sense. Drives me absolutely up the wall.

René:
I tuck mine into my sunroof when I'm driving in bad zones, hoping that I'm just a little closer to the tower. But I'm just waiting for that day. I forget it's there and I open the sunroof and it just takes off. So many stupid things just as an attempt to improve the service.

Ryan Duncan:
Like, I just don't understand how they can see me from space and look up whatever I'm looking at. But you can't. Like, I dropped my call three times driving home yesterday. Made no sense, just zero.

Darryl:
Well, in all fairness, you're talking to your wife and you dropped the call.

Ryan Duncan:
Yeah. Sorry. Can you hear? You're going through a tunnel...

René:
Oh, but so annoying man. And everyone deals with the same issues. It's so stupid.

Darryl:
Speaking of terrible service, I know Ryan has a big love for Questrade.

Ryan Duncan:
Darryl, I would love to work for Questrade just to change everything.

René:
There you go. That would be an improvement.

Darryl:
Well, here's the thing. I watch the Super Bowl and I see these ads and they make it sound so good, so trustworthy, so much that it's trying to tell me that a human being that I work with, you guys as my financial planners are no good and that I should trust them because if I trust them, I'll be a millionaire by next week.

Ryan Duncan:
Yeah, it's a good plan. Thousand dollars invested, Million bucks by next week. It's not bad.

Darryl:
So what is that? What's the disconnect there? Because I know people are buying into this bullshit, and I'm going to say it. It's bullshit. They're not my competitors, so I have no problem saying that.

Ryan Duncan:
I will say it is very misleading. And I think this is going to segment well into me asking you a few questions on marketing. But one of the main problems I have with Questrade is that it's very misleading in their marketing. So that. That Super Bowl commercial, Rene and I probably got asked a thousand questions on that because, of course, that whole premise of the commercial is saying that you paid over 2% in mutual fund fees, invest with Questrade, and you're going to retire essentially 30% wealthier. 30% is a huge amount of money.

Darryl:
No kidding. Especially with all my wealth.

Ryan Duncan:
Yeah, that's right. That's right.

René:
Yeah. I may have $3,000 more.

Darryl:
That's right.

Ryan Duncan:
So the premise of that commercial is basically saying that the fees eat at your returns, which is very true. I would never dispute that. Okay. But what they do is they take, say, a base value of 1000 bucks, we'll use as an example, and they say, okay, if you have a fee of 0.5% or you have a fee of 2% over time, what does that erosion look like to your principal? Well, of course, the one that has a 2% fee is going to erode much faster than the half a percent.

Darryl:
Yeah.

René:
The numbers don't lie.

Ryan Duncan:
The numbers don't lie. But what they're not doing is they're not actively managing the fund or the portfolio. So there's no growth. So, of course, if you have a thousand dollars and one's being eroded by 2% and one's being eroded by 0.5%, well, no shit, you're going to have more money with the portfolio that's charging 0.5%.

Darryl:
Right.

Ryan Duncan:
But again, they're not comparing apples to apples. So many fund companies release lots of information on this because they were actively attacked on the Super Bowl. So of course they're going to combat that. So I have multiple, multiple sources from RBC, Fidelity, Manulife, Canada Life, the list goes on.

René:
You name it.

Ryan Duncan:
And it basically shows that the questrade portfolio that is not actively managed is underperforming the comparative portfolio from any other fund company. Net of fees. I'll say that again. Net of fees. So Rene and I always talk about price and value. And I mean, that was said by, I believe it was Benjamin Graham who first said it. And then Warren Buffett has taken that to the next level.

René:
And then you're taking it to the next level.

Ryan Duncan:
That's right. That's right. So price is what you pay, value is what you get.

Darryl:
Right.

Ryan Duncan:
I have no problem paying 2%, 3%, 4%. Okay. If the value is there for what I'm getting, am I getting the service? Am I getting the performance? Now, if you're being charged 2%, and your portfolio is doing 3%, you have a problem. If I'm paying 2% and getting all that value plus the portfolio is doing 10 to 16%, then the fee makes sense.

Darryl:
Yeah, true.

Ryan Duncan:
Now what I've come to learn is that investing is in. Rene, you can correct me if I'm wrong here or your opinion, but investing is two things. It's statistics and it's behavior. Rene and I are very good at looking at the statistics and we're very good at adjusting to the behavior of the individual investor, really understanding the circumstances. And that comes into our holistic financial plan.

René:
Managing emotions through turbulent times is something that is an integral part of our job. Right. It's not timing the market, it's time in the market and having the right strategy in place from the beginning for the right reasons after designing a solid plan allows us to manage the client's emotion when they're freaking out. Whereas you don't have, you know, any of that support when you're dealing with yourself. If you're a do it yourselfer because you're not going to be able to control those emotions.

Ryan Duncan:
Yeah, right. So questrade is a platform, it's a discount broker, it's a self directed broker. You basically invest in whatever you want. So if you want to jump in there and buy Apple stock, you can do so. If you want to buy a Treasury, you can buy a Treasury bond. If you want to invest in etf, find the etf. But my question to those people that are doing that is why are you picking Apple? Right? Or why are you picking this etf? Or why don't you have some bond exposure? Or why do you not want bond exposure? So if, if that investor can explain to me why they're picking certain things in their portfolio, then maybe you should go at it yourself, you know, maybe you should pay that lower fee. But I would say 99% of people don't have that expertise, they don't have that time and they don't have that understanding.

Ryan Duncan:
So my problem with questrade is you get too caught up on fees and fees are very important. I want clients to ask us what they're paying because we're very transparent and I want you to know exactly where that value is deriving from and it's that price you pay. Okay. However, again, for the majority of people, the average investor actually loses money. So I've got some stats here. Again, I'm a big stack guy. I'm a nerd.

René:
That's what makes you amazing at what you do though.

Darryl:
Exactly.

René:
Stat away, buddy.

Darryl:
Give us the stats.

Ryan Duncan:
My mom still loves me.

René:
I love you too, Ryan.

Ryan Duncan:
I'll never say back.

René:
I'll never say it back

Ryan Duncan:
The average investor underperforms a typical stock or an equity fund by about 3.5% over their lifetime.

Darryl:
Okay.

René:
So get this, Darryl. I had my financial calculator here, and I'm just plugging away as Ryan is hashing out all these stats. Let's say a typical Canadian saving $500 a month at age 30 and retires at 65. So you religiously put $500 a month into your investment, whether it's an RSP or TFSA or whatever, non registered. You put 500 bucks a month. And let's say an equity mutual fund, for example, nets 8% on average. And you have time in the market, you don't attempt to time the market and you're consistent with your savings. At 8% percent return, you would have just shy of 1.2 million at 500 bucks a month over that 35 year period.

Darryl:
So retiring at age 65, just under 1.2 million.

René:
Yeah, yeah, 1.145 million.

Darryl:
And that's working with the CFP.

René:
You take a 3.5% haircut on that. With Ryan's stat on the average investor underperforming a typical stock or equity fund by 3.5% over their lifetime, you now have a net return of 4.5%. You know what the fucking compounded growth of that is? At 65 the same $500 a month, $500,000, 508,000 to be precise, because Ryan's going to chirp me about precision. 114 5, minus $508,000. It's a difference of $637,000.

Darryl:
Typically. And these are just obviously hypothetical numbers.

René:
They're examples, they're scenarios.

Darryl:
But this is me working with the CFP. You know, again, a hypothetical situation at an average of 8%, I'm retiring a millionaire.

René:
With 100% equity portfolio.

Darryl:
Yeah. I do it on my own. And stats have shown that they underperform by that 3.5%. I'm going to retire a six hundred and forty thousand-aire.

René:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You'll be a half millionaire instead of one and a quarter millionaire.

Darryl:
Gotcha.

Ryan Duncan:
So, on the bond side, it's even worse. You're underperforming the typical bond index by 4.95%.

Darryl:
Okay.

Ryan Duncan:
On an asset allocation fund. So essentially a set it and forget it fund, you're underperforming by 5%. These are significant amounts of money you're leaving on the table because of your pride or because of the fees alone. Because you're saying that the fees are more important than the value. And that's just not true.

René:
And this is net of fees.

Darryl:
Yeah. Yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
Another stat that I'll throw out is that between four and six years of having financial advice increases your net worth by 1.7 times. If you take that same advice for 7 to 14 years, it increases your net worth by 2.7 times. And here's the kicker. If you take advice for 15 years, on average, you'll have a 3.9 times more net worth than if you did not take advice. The value of investment advice and really understanding the whole principle of investing significantly increases your chances of improving your net worth.

René:
15 years. 1 million versus 3.9.

Darryl:
Now, I know people who do it themselves, who use questrade, who use all these different platforms to create their wealth. How do we change their minds?

Ryan Duncan:
I think it's just through education, Darryl. And honestly, it's sad of me to say, but you're going to see a lot of these people come back to us five years, 10 years, 12 years down the road and say, I should have come to you for advice because I lost 10%, I lost 20%, I lost 30%. If you look for it, you can find it. Like, even if you go to Reddit, which I know is not, you can't really credit Reddit, but I mean, typically people wouldn't post their losses. And you can go on there and see someone who basically said, I tried it at my own hand, at it, and have lost more than a million dollars. Right? Look at GameStop. Okay? There are winners of GameStop. Oh, make no mistake, people have made money on GameStop.

Ryan Duncan:
But think of the people who have lost a lot of money on GameStop because they don't understand.

René:
Yeah, we know some of them. So the ones that made money all of a sudden, in their minds, are heroes. And the ones that have lost money are not talking about it, right?

Darryl:
Well, and that's what I find funny is. And I find challenging. I know for Hepburn Productions, doing your marketing, the challenge we face is those people who are having bits of success doing it themselves and they think they are geniuses. They're like, I do not need an expert. If I could sit down with each one of them, one on one, I could say, yeah, I know how to tighten the lug nut on the fricking toilet. However, when I have water pouring everywhere, I need the plumber. So, yes, I might know how to do it, but. But it's not my profession, it's not my expertise.

Ryan Duncan:
Right.

Darryl:
And I have trouble conveying that sometimes because the way our society has become over time and we see this, whether it's politics or marketing or whatever, is that we know it all. I know it all, he knows it all, everyone knows it all. And I find that's the challenge. And that's why I feel someone like Questrade is very, very dangerous in their messaging because they're basically saying, if you think you know it all, we are going to tell you you're right and you're going to make a million dollars doing. Yeah. And it's just not true.

Ryan Duncan:
It's not true. And the other problem I have is the complexities of it. So, I mean, picking securities or picking your portfolio is only one piece of the puzzle. Rene and I look at multiple avenues of the puzzle. Okay, so sure, you're going to pick Apple stock, but now what account are you going to hold it in?

Darryl:
Yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
What proportion of your portfolio should you hold it in? Right. Are we tax efficient? Are we liquid? Are we looking into the future? Are we just looking at historical returns and Apple's kicked ass? I'm going to buy Apple.

Darryl:
Yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
Is it fundamentally sound? Right. These are the questions that we ask for the investments. And then on top of that, when you have an investment advisor or financial planner, are we looking at all the asset classes? Are we picking the right investment managers? Are you at a certain type of life stage that maybe we can't invest this aggressively? Right. Maybe you're looking to educate your kids or buy a house. The investment's going to change.

Darryl:
Right.

Ryan Duncan:
We're not just going to invest in one stock and shoot for the moon.

Darryl:
Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
Right. What are your financial circumstances? And I think that's what people really miss. They really miss the planning part. They think investing is the end all, be all, and I promise you it is not.

Darryl:
Yeah, yeah.

René:
These platforms are really setting people up for failure with this false sense of hope that they can do it themselves successfully for sure. I mean for us, like Ryan mentions is the whole planning piece. Like for me, tax efficiency, man, that's how the wealthy get wealthier.

Darryl:
No kidding.

René:
Is by being tax efficient and paying the least amount of tax possible.

Darryl:
Yeah.

René:
So asset location, like how many times Ry do we have a client where we're like well we're bringing on a new client and we shuffle things around where we'll move some of their fixed income, you know, out of their non registered accounts and put it into their RSP or TFSA for tax efficiency. We start to shuffle that and have them kind of get the general understanding of what we're trying to accomplish. And they'd be like oh man, like I should have come to see you guys decades ago.

Darryl:
Right.

René:
Because it would have been a game changer. But it's just when you think you can do it yourself. Yeah, you're leaving so much opportunity on the table.

Ryan Duncan:
So like Rene said, the wealthy get wealthier from paying less taxes. No dispute. Number one impediment to wealth creation is taxes. Especially in Canada. We are very taxed. The second one or the I put two and three together is inflation and fees. I'm not anti fee. I want to have this conversation.

Ryan Duncan:
I'm not saying to every client that comes in and talks about that super bowl ad to say I'm not talking about fees. I want to talk about fees. But I want you to understand why the fee is not 0.5%. Another important thing. Just building off that, think of Questrade and all these other self direct brokers as like a discount airline. Like a, like a Flair I'll call it.

Darryl:
You're gonna make me angry here.

René:
You poked the bear.

Ryan Duncan:
I had a sore spot. Did I Darryl?

Darryl:
Yeah, my knees on the back of the seats.

Ryan Duncan:
Oh yeah, discount my friend.

René:
Imagine if you're six two, six four.

Ryan Duncan:
I identify as six two. So like a discount airline. So they get you in the door by saying Your price is 300 bucks where Air Canada might be a thousand. So obviously you're going to go to Flair because it's way cheaper. Why wouldn't you? Yeah, but then all of a sudden you got to pay for a check back while your carry on is extra too now and you want to pick a seat, well there's another 150 bucks. So by the time you're done you're very close to the Air Canada price. Well the discount brokers like Questrade are very similar. You need a tax receipt.

Ryan Duncan:
Right. You need a document that you have to retrieve for somebody, you want registered mail, you need a courier service, you want to stop a payment, it's 25 bucks. So all these things add up. So yes, you're paying 0.5% of the portfolio. But the things that are already included in the fees that we charge for everyday service and looking after our clients are add ons to these companies. So for some people, the pricing model does not work for self directed brokerages.

Darryl:
Okay.

René:
And at the end of the day, you're still with Flair. Right. You've paid almost as much as the premium airline. You're then in the fetal position because you don't have any room for your legs and you really don't have any real service. And so you got a shitty deal and you're paying almost as much.

Darryl:
And we're picking on Questrade here mainly because of that super bowl ad. Like that was such a huge super bowl ad, it ruffled tons of feathers nationwide. But there's others out there that do the same thing.

Ryan Duncan:
Yeah, you're 100% right. I think that ad was $7 million.

Darryl:
That's the funny part about it, is like they are preaching, we don't charge you fees. So magically they spent $7 million on a super bowl ad. Where do you think they got that money?

Ryan Duncan:
It's not a charity.

Darryl:
That's mind boggling to me. I hate that I have friends who will say I deal with the advisor at the bank because I get charged no fees.

René:
Yeah.

Darryl:
And I'm like, it's like it drives me crazy. And I'm like, if you think you're paying no fees, I, I feel like we should take your license away. I feel like, like you should not be in charge of a vehicle. I don't trust you now because it's common sense.

René:
So, so I had a client, we've got countless stories, but I had this one client that predates Ryan's existence at our firm and dealing with the, the guy for a while. And, and when, you know, back in the day when we were transitioning into fee based planning, this guy had a portfolio with embedded fees. And so then of course, you know, we were transitioning all of our clients to fee based so that we can have disclosure, we can have preferred pricing, we can have tax deductibility on non registered investments. You know, so all of the benefits of disclosure, you know, developing solid relationships with the clients with trust and transparency and actually paying less fees because the fees were lower and tax deductibility on his non registered stuff. So his very first statement he calls me. He's just beside himself that he's paying fees. So you're saving yourself 20 basis points. I'm saving you 0.2% on your management fees.

René:
You're getting to deduct them because you're in a 30% tax bracket, so you're paying 30% less on your non registered investment account fees. And I said, this is the right thing to do. And now you know exactly how I get paid. And like we were doing this guy's tax return, we did all the financial planning, we helped. The guy had just retired, we helped him through the whole retirement income planning process, tax efficiency, everything. After his first quarterly statement, he transferred everything to the bank. He preferred to have his fucking head in the sand and just forget about it. Like, I don't want to see the fees, I don't want to deal with them.

René:
He moved all of his money to a local bank because he preferred to believe that he wasn't paying any fees. Instead of us having, you know, the responsible conversation of why we're doing this, how we get paid, how do we save you money and how do we make you tax efficient?

Ryan Duncan:
Ignorance is not bliss.

René:
So the idea of going to the bank and thinking that you're not paying a fee is absolutely absurd. They have record breaking profits year after year.

Darryl:
Well, and that's where I think what Ryan was saying about educating people is that I think money has become so complex. Gone are the days of putting money under your mattress and just having one bank account. There's so much complexity and so many avenues of where your money could be and how it could be used and how it can work for tax purposes and, and such that I feel the average person thinks we know everything there is to know about it. But realistically we really don't. We know a small fraction of what it is and we act like we know. And then when we see a fee, in this case, that gentleman, when he saw the fees for the first time, he's like, oh, you know what, I've never paid fees. And it's like, well, no, you've always paid fees. You pay fees at the bank, you pay fees here.

Darryl:
They just embed them in their hidden costs. Yeah. And it's like, no, no, I never pay. That's where the education part needs to come in for society. Because I think we've been blinded by the light of this is how it always was, and now it's changing and as a society we're just not keeping up.

Ryan Duncan:
Well, that's it. And I think going back to my point of the intricacies of self directed brokers and doing it yourself, those brokers allow you to open up accounts that the average person should not be. You can open a margin account. So margin account is essentially allows you to borrow money to invest. If you don't understand how that works, that can be very dangerous.

Darryl:
No kidding.

Ryan Duncan:
There is a story that came out of the States actually. So during COVID a broker like Questrade called Robin Hood. I'm sure you guys are familiar with it. They had a young gentleman on there. I think he was maybe 20, 22 somewhere around there. The story is, and you can search this is that he committed suicide because he saw a negative balance of around 730,000. Now I'm not exactly sure how that happened.

Ryan Duncan:
I know he was trading options again, something the average investor should not be doing.

Darryl:
Yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
And for some reason it showed a negative balance of 730,000. And basically he had said like how does a company allow a 20 year old to leverage that amount of money now again, I don't actually think they did. I think it was just something with how the software was showing a balance. However, to the average person, you don't know that. Right. So I mean obviously very sad and I don't know too much on it. But again these discount brokers get you in the door with low fees. But that can be the deal with the devil, my friends.

Ryan Duncan:
Like that is you, you're, you're going at it alone. You're not asking somebody, you're googling things, you're trying to figure it out before you know it's, you're out of money. Right?

René:
Yeah. To add to that, you know when you were saying things are more complicated now. Right. There's a lot more investment vehicles available in Canada now that there was 20 years ago, even 10 years ago. Yeah. My analogy on that is fucking vehicles.

Darryl:
Yeah.

René:
How often would we remember as kids where dad would have his head in the hood and he'd be making repairs to the family vehicle because it was a simple engine. Now like I wouldn't even know how to change a spark plug or change. Like I can't even find the battery in my car, to be honest with you. No, it's, it's for real. They have booster cables that are set up in the frame of the vehicle, but you don't actually see the battery.

Darryl:
I know, right.

René:
So it's like how the fuck do you think that you're going to fix that car? So you bring it to a mechanic shop so that they can fix it properly. Because they have to. Yeah. They have to plug it into their machine so that they can run the diagnostics on it.

Darryl:
Yeah.

René:
It's same thing with what we do in our world. It's not as simple as it once was. It's more complicated than ever. And it all comes back to price versus value.

Darryl:
Yeah, for sure.

Ryan Duncan:
So I'll say in summary, because we can talk about this forever, I can go on about fees and fees and fees and cell service for till the end of time. I want you to ask your advisor what you're paying. You need to know what you're paying. It's very important. But then I also want you to look at what you're paying and see the value you're getting. Because if you're not getting the value or you don't feel you're getting the value, have a conversation. I'm sure the advisor would explain it to you. And if they can't, well, it makes your decision a little bit easier.

Ryan Duncan:
I'm not anti fee discussion by any means. And I don't want to seem like I'm against discount brokers or self directed brokers in entirety. I'm not. But for 99% of people, you shouldn't be going at it alone. I think it's a. I think it's a root for disaster.

René:
Oh, sorry guys. Sorry. I was out of cell signal for a second.

Darryl:
What do you say?

Ryan Duncan:
There you go.

Darryl:
Ryan, we're going to take a quick break, but can you stick around?

Ryan Duncan:
I would love to stick around, Darrell.

Darryl:
Awesome. We'll be right back.

Darryl:
Listen, I want to piggyback a little off. What? You just.

René:
You don't have to tell me to listen. We're in a podcast. I got my headset on. You're speaking into a big fat mic. Even if I didn't want to listen, I have to.

Darryl:
But see, I talk so much that I know you tune me out. So if I say listen, that's me saying listen up. I'm actually talking for a purpose right now.

Ryan Duncan:
I don't like when mom and dad fight stresses me out.

Darryl:
I want to piggyback a little off. What you guys were talking about. And that's false advertising. And it's a big topic because it's crucial to maintain your brand's integrity and your reputation. And we've talked about this many times on the show. And honestly, it's about keeping your business kind of out of hot water, both legally and socially. So to get into it, we all want our businesses to shine, but it's so easy to slip into the trap of false or exaggerated claims. And what I'm talking about is think about those ads you've seen where it's like number one pizza in Toronto or Vancouver's top selling realtor.

Darryl:
These claims, although they sound impressive, right? But without hard evidence to back them up, they're basically just setting your business up for trouble. Now let's be real for one second. False advertising isn't just about stretching the truth. It can backfire big time. When customers actually find out that your claims are exaggerated or they feel deceived and it's 2025, they're not complaining just over dinner anymore. They're posting and bitching about you on social media and dropping shitty Google reviews.

René:
Yeah, absolutely.

Ryan Duncan:
So that brings me to a question, Darryl.

Darryl:
Yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
Is bad marketing or false marketing? I know they're probably two different things. Better than no marketing.

Darryl:
Well, it's up for debate because bad marketing can create awareness, but it risks damaging your brand and reputation, potentially leading to long term harm. Right. While no marketing means lack of visibility and the cost of recovering from a poorly executed campaign kind of might be greater than staying under the radar.

Ryan Duncan:
Right? Because I know, I know that if I listen to an ad and it's a shitty ad. Right? So we'll go with bad marketing.

Darryl:
Yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
Well, I might listen to it 10 times in a day. Right. And all of a sudden, either subconsciously or willingly, I've now started to think, well, maybe I will try that out. Or maybe, you know, like, it's so bad it's good, is basically what I'm saying.

Darryl:
Well, and sometimes that's the genius of it, is that we've seen really bad marketing take off, right? And it does that because it's so bad that you can't look away. It's a fucking train wreck.

René:
Yeah.

Darryl:
Let me give you an example. I think it was around 2020 and Burger King did this campaign briefly, mind you, but their goal was to highlight their commitment to using preservative free ingredients. And I think the tagline was something like the beauty of no artificial preservatives or something like that. And it was a bad ad for a few reasons. First, it was unappetizing to look at because it was a time lapse video of a Whopper sandwich decaying and growing mold over a month. And while the idea was to highlight the freshness and the lack of preservatives, the majority missed the message and were just completely grossed out and turned a lot of people away, right?

René:
Yeah, absolutely.

Darryl:
However, it did work to some extent. The shock value and the attention went frickin viral. It created buzz and people were actually talking about Burger King again. And some people were buying Big Macs from McDonald's and doing the same experiment on social media. And after 30 days, the Big Mac didn't look much different because of the preservatives in it, because of all the shit that McDonald's puts in their stuff they don't want you to know about.

Ryan Duncan:
Well, that's it.

Darryl:
But here's the kicker. Burger King won awards for this.

Ryan Duncan:
That's awesome.

Darryl:
Even though it might have lost them some customers. It got people talking, it got people doing shit on social media. It kind of boosted their reputation as a risk taking brand. And this is a prime example of how bad marketing can just be so, so good.

René:
Yeah, yeah.

Darryl:
But back to like this whole false advertising, it kind of does the same thing. It not only does it lead to lost business, it can also scare off potential new customers. And think of it much like the bad ad. It's like if you have a bad ad, it can scare away people. You could have the best product in the world or service in the world. If you have a bad ad, they're not going to want to give you a chance.

Ryan Duncan:
I get that.

René:
I don't know. But I would guess that it's hard to recover from that once that reputation is tranished.

Darryl:
And that's the thing, and especially with false advertising, because it can lead to legal trouble. Like we're talking fines, lawsuits. And it could be financially devastating, not just for your business, but for you personally. Especially if you haven't set up your company properly. That can dip right into. All of a sudden your house is gone because you're paying for a lawsuit.

René:
Absolutely.

Ryan Duncan:
That's probably why questrade has disclaimers on every single piece of information they have. Right?

Darryl:
Everyone does. Apple has a thing. If you dig real deep into the settings, go under general. There's a bunch of settings and there is a legal disclaimer real far down. It's in there that says do not put your phone anywhere near you when you're not using it. When we're not using our phone. Where Is it generally?

René:
In our pocket. Or on our nightstand?

Darryl:
Yeah, but it's so buried in there that you have no idea.

René:
So the disclaimer is buried in there or the phone's buried in there?

Darryl:
Yeah, both.

Ryan Duncan:
It's near my little Duncan's.

René:
Rubbing against the Duncan's. No wonder you don't have children. It's not your fault.

Darryl:
Exactly.

René:
Apple.

Ryan Duncan:
Suprise.

Darryl:
But if you're a mom and pop business or you're not a very big company, just imagine for a second the reputation of not only going down the drain, but on top of that, your mental health taking a hit from the stress, your finances are being hit. All this because you bullshitted in an ad.

Ryan Duncan:
That's a good point.

René:
Moral of the story, don't bullshit in an ad questrade.

Darryl:
Well, exactly so. And that's the takeaway, right? Building trust through honest and transparent marketing is key to sustainable growth and long term success. And I've talked about this before and I want to give a couple tips on how to avo falling into that false advertising trap because it's so easy. First is you have to quantify your claims. If you're claiming to be the best, make sure you have data to back that up. Instead of saying, number one pizza in Toronto, try rated best pizza in Toronto by XYZ magazine. It's that small little shift, but it makes your claim legit. Right.

Darryl:
You know, with my company Hepburn Productions, we have a pizza company as a client and we did a campaign a while ago that we decided, let's think outside the box.

René:
Outside the pizza box.

Darryl:
Let's think outside the pizza box. Instead of lying to customers, we actually sourced some real reviews and we had headlines as rated best pizza by Mike's mom. Number one pizza voted by Melissa's uncle. Which were all true.

Ryan Duncan:
Yeah. Just being creative.

Darryl:
Yeah. And customers loved it. They love the honesty and transparency. They would come in and they're like, is that real? Is there a guy? Mike? And it's like, yeah, actually Mike's mom.

René:
I bet you Mike's mom's got it going on too.

Darryl:
She did.

Ryan Duncan:
I knew that dad joke was coming. I just knew it.

Darryl:
But that's the thing. It's fun and honest, right? And it's still got the message across. Another thing is be cautious with your visuals. It's so tempting to photoshop your product images, but if a customer feels deceived when the real thing doesn't match the photo, it can really bite you in the ass. Like obviously, yes. Use high quality images that showcase your real strengths of your product or service without Trying to make them something they're not.

René:
Credibility, integrity, like all of that stuff should be fundamentally important. It's beyond me that people would actually take that, you know, I would say a desperate approach to growing their business.

Darryl:
Well, here's the thing. A lot of people I know who are listening are going to say, well, don't big brands do this all the time? Don't they Photoshop their stuff? And it's true. Think of McDonald's. They enhance their images, right? It's, it's all flash, it's all fake. Parts of it are real, but a lot of it is fake stuff. But here's the thing. They've spent decades building a brand people trust. Yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
And you're not McDonald's.

Darryl:
Yeah. They started out much like a mom and pop shop. And they built the trust. They got you to love the product, and over time they built their marketing as such. But still, if you ask anyone if they saw a picture of the new burger at McDonald's, they'll likely say yes. But it's not going to look that good in real life.

Ryan Duncan:
Right?

Darryl:
Because we're not stupid. We know that they give us false information. And as a small business, you don't have that luxury yet. You haven't built that following of millions of people that trust you and your product or your service. So misleading customers even once can damage your reputation for good.

René:
As a small business, you really don't have that luxury.

Darryl:
So focus on authentic messaging, highlight your unique selling points, share real customer testimonials, and give behind the scenes looks at the process. I've talked about all this shit before. This is something I bitch about all the time. Show the real value of your products or service and you'll build that base. And for the love of God, be honest about your limitations.

Ryan Duncan:
That's good

Darryl:
No product or service is perfect. And that's okay. Being upfront about what your product can do and can't do, it builds credibility. Customers will respect your honesty and they'll be more likely to trust your brand in the long run.

Ryan Duncan:
Yep. I couldn't agree more. If a contractor comes to me and I ask him to do work at the house and he says, actually, I, I had somebody come over to the house because I wanted a live edge piece.

Darryl:
Yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
And he said, you know, I, I hate to do this and I hate to give business away, but my competitor in town is far better suited for this and he would just do a better job..

Darryl:
And that amount of respect, you're going to hire him for everything he is good at now because you know he's going to give.

Ryan Duncan:
You the best 100%. I had already hired him for a. For a task at the house, and he'll be on my. My top of my list for the next go around. Yeah, like, it's just like you said, it just provides that loyalty, that trust.

Darryl:
You're going to tell other people, right. When they're looking for that type of service, it pays off.

Ryan Duncan:
Yeah, 100%.

Darryl:
All right, that's it for me. Let's take a quick break with a truthful advertisement.

René:
I want the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God.

Darryl:
You can't handle the truth. We'll be right back.

Darryl:
Okay, I want to chat with you guys about one of the toughest challenges in the gift giving game. And you know what I'm talking about. That one person in your life who either has everything already or, even better, insists they don't need anything. And I despise buying gifts for people where it's just going to go in a closet. It's going to be donated to goodwill in a week, in a month. How do you guys deal with this type of gift giving?

René:
I like to think I'm a giver. I actually find a lot of pleasure in giving. However, I'm at the age, in the stage of my life now that if someone really does have everything, I don't really get them anything. And if someone really wants something but says, no, I'm good, I don't need anything, then I'm not going to play that fucking mind game because I don't have enough time in my day to even give it a second thought. So if you tell me, no, I'm good, I don't need anything, I'm not going to get you anything.

Darryl:
And I'm okay with that, like, when I say it. But when I do get something, when I've said I don't want anything, it's like one of those nice surprises where it's just like, whoa, I wasn't expecting that. That's great.

Ryan Duncan:
My thing with that is, you know, the other person is going to be getting you a gift, so then you feel like an asshole. So I always end up getting a gift.

Darryl:
Yeah.

Ryan Duncan:
So my dad did that to me one year. So I Went fine. I went out to the store, went to Walmart and I bought a four foot teddy bear and I brought it home that it's been on his bed. My 63 year old dad has been on his bed for like 10 years because I bought it for him as a joke and now he makes sure that he gets me a list every year.

René:
Oh, that's cute though.

Ryan Duncan:
Yeah, Yeah. I mean it stopped the problem of saying I don't need anything. He gets me a list every year now.

René:
That's awesome. That's a great story.

Darryl:
Well, and that's the thing. I again I'm gonna go back to. I hate just sitting in a drawer or being given away and I are being regifted. I've had that. I've had my own gift be regifted back to me.

Ryan Duncan:
Couldn't make that up.

Darryl:
Oh, I remember seeing it and I just played it. Oh my God, thank you so much. That's so nice. Left said to Erin, I am not making this up. This is the gift we gave like three years ago.

René:
Yeah, the funny part, Ry...

Ryan Duncan:
It was your gift.

Darryl:
I like to think I give you nice gifts.

René:
Oh yeah. Because I really do want gifts and I don't have everything, so I'm easy to shop for.

Darryl:
Exactly. Well, see that's the thing. It took me a while to kind of perfect this art and I think I've got it down to a pretty good science now of finding that perfect gift for the hard shopper. And my first thing that I try to do is try to give them experiences over things. Right?

Ryan Duncan:
Right.

Darryl:
So instead of giving them something they can put on a shelf, I give them experience. Like a ticket to a concert, a cooking class.

Ryan Duncan:
Great idea.

Darryl:
Yeah, I bought our in laws a masterclass subscription. Not because I thought they were stupid, but. Or like a weekend getaway.

René:
Don't worry, they're not listening to you on this podcast.

Ryan Duncan:
But Jesus is.

René:
They don't like you either.

Darryl:
It's exactly bonus points though. I think it's bonus points if it's something you guys can enjoy together. So like if I buy you a pair of concert tickets and I get myself some, it's something we can enjoy together. It's like saying here's a memory in the making without adding more clutter to your life. Right.

Ryan Duncan:
But then you assume I want you at that concert. Darryl, this is a problem for me. Actually, Lex and I do the same thing, Darryl. So we don't buy each other gifts anymore. We'll buy each other like if we're traveling, we'll do an excursion. And that's kind of what we do. Like, it's just. It's more fun that way.

Darryl:
Oh, 100%.

René:
In a relationship, you get to know each other. And, like, Ryan mentions, like, Megan and I, when we want or need something, we typically just go and get it. Like, you need something, you order it on Amazon, two days later, it's at your doorstep.

Darryl:
And that kind of leads me to my next gift idea, is that I like to think about stuff that makes life easier. So like a car detailing appointment or a few sessions with a cleaning service. Right. Something practical that, you know, it's thoughtful and, you know, it's something that they'll actually use. And it's like saying, I see you. I know you're busy, so let me take one of those things off your plate for a moment. Right.

René:
So nice of you.

Darryl:
I try. Well, and that leads me to my next point. Sentimental stuff. And when I say sentimental stuff, this. I don't know if this is the old man growing inside of me. I'm not going to say that. That sounded really bad. The old man growing inside of me.

Darryl:
I'm going to rephrase that. Let's rewind just a little bit.

Ryan Duncan:
Yeah, there's no coming back for that one, Darryl.

Darryl:
I don't know if it's me getting older and more sentimental. And this kind of gift really depends on the type of person you're giving it to. But things like a heartfelt note, a creative photo book with some shared memories, recording a video message with family and friends, stuff like that, that just kind of pulls at the heartstrings. And when I say a simple note, like, I have a couple antique typewriters that are functional, and I'll type up notes to people every now and then and just send them a note. And again, it depends on the person. Can't send that to somebody who wouldn't really give a fuck.

René:
Yeah, like, send me expensive shit, man. Don't fucking type up anything for me.

Darryl:
Yeah, I know. I would never send you a nice note.

Ryan Duncan:
I'll take something sentimental.

Darryl:
Okay.

René:
Fuck you Ryan, you can't even say I love you. Shut up.

Ryan Duncan:
Like. But, like, for my mom and for Lex. Yeah, that's it.

Darryl:
Yeah, well, and that's the thing. It's like, it's not for everybody, but as I say in marketing, you need to know your audience, right?

René:
Absolutely. For sure.

Darryl:
I think at the end of the day, gift giving for these impossible types doesn't have to be stressful. It goes back to my repetitiveness of thinking outside the box, showing that you put a little effort into it. And if they say, oh, you shouldn't have, just smile and say, but I did. And really, that's kind of the whole spirit of giving.

Ryan Duncan:
Oh, Darryl. My heart just grew two sizes.

René:
I like to look at it as just forces you to get creative, that's all. Test your creativity.

Darryl:
Exactly. So I know my parents listen to this podcast, and this whole thing is about them, and they know it. They're listening right now, and they know they are hard to shop for. And I buy them stuff that's useful, and they'll let it sit for a year until I finally convince them to use it, and then they're like, oh, my God, this is the greatest thing ever.

René:
Like an Actifry or something.

Darryl:
Like an Actifry. Exactly. All right, that's a wrap. Ryan, thanks for joining us, guys.

Ryan Duncan:
It's been my pleasure. I don't know if I did something right or if you're just running out of people to invite, but thank you.

René:
No, you were top of the list. We were just waiting for the right time.

Ryan Duncan:
Well, I appreciate it, guys. It's always a pleasure and it's always fun.

Darryl:
Always, Ryan. And if you guys enjoyed hanging out with us, make sure you hit the follow button on Instagram, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you tune in. And don't keep us a secret. Share the love with your friends, and we'll see you guys next time.